This is one in a brief series of dialogs emerging from Voice Dialog and the Big Mind process. It starts a little haltingly and becomes more interesting as it goes along. I see it mostly as a draft and exploration with some gold here and there. The best may be to start in the middle or towards the end and read the topics that most draws your interest.
Who are you?
I am one who has lived for eons. Happy to talk with you.
How am I different from you?
You are not that different. The main difference is that you are still caught up in the day-to-day changes and dramas. You use it to color your experience and whether you are happy or anxious.
I do that much less. I have seen it all. It’s all variations of life. It’s not worth getting so caught up in it. I take it seriously. I play the game. And I see it – and live it and viscerally feel it – as part of the tapestry of life.
How come you take it seriously if you see it as “part of the game”?
Because I know that not taking it seriously is not satisfying. I did that too, a long time ago. I disengaged. I had a distance to it. And that felt hollow. That too is not worth it, not for very long at least. It’s far more satisfying to be fully engaged.
Why do you see it as “part of the game” – what’s the game?
The game of life. It’s just a way of talking about it. I am just referring to life unfolding in all the many ways it does. Or existence unfolding as it does, here and now, locally and temporary as us and this seamless whole we call life and Earth.
How do you see life and death?
That’s a big topic. I see change as what allows anything new to be. And change involves life and death.
What comes together falls apart. And what falls apart makes space for something new to be.
Everything that’s here, everything we know, everything we love, is here because everything that went before is not here anymore. It went away so something new could be.
So how do you relate to change? Impermanence?
Much as I said. It brings things I like and also enjoy less, and I also know that it all comes as one package.
Without impermanence, nothing of what we are and know would be here. And that includes all the things my personality enjoys. So to have what we enjoy, we need the whole package. The whole package of life and what’s here.
It’s all part of the tapestry of life.
What is this tapestry of life?
It’s all the many aspects of life, the many expressions of this seamless whole of life, this living unfolding planet, and this living unfolding existence. It’s all expressions of one seamless unfolding whole. Always new. Always different. Always fresh. Always infinite expressions.
How can I live more as you do? Should I?
If you do, you should. If you don’t, then don’t worry about it. (And worry if you must.) It comes naturally with time and lived life. There is no need to force it, or try to force it. That only creates more stress. And this way is not inherently better at all. It’s just what comes out of having lived and experienced for longer.
There is as much beauty and value in your life as it is in mine. There is as much beauty and value in the way of living that comes with a younger perspective, as it is in an older perspective.
At the same time, there is wisdom in the older perspective, and that’s worth exploring. Even if you are young, if you have not lived long, that’s worth exploring.
What are you?
That’s a good question. It’s an essential question. I used to take myself as this being, as one among many, as one that’s subject to change and influenced by circumstances. As content of the world and experience. And that’s not wrong. That’s here too. I am not less that than I thought.
And yet, I find I am also something else. With all these changes, with having lived so much changes, I also notice that something does not seem to change. Me as a being changes over time, and something here does not seem to change. I got curious about that. Is it true something I am does not change? If so, what is that?
I find that I am what all these changes happen within and as. In my own first-person noticing, I am what all content of experience – including this being – happens within and as.
That’s wonderful. I love it. I love noticing it. I love living from and as that noticing.
I love when this noticing is in the foreground of attention, and also when it goes more in the background and I just live my life. Both are wonderful, and the flow between them is wonderful.
Now you sound like a Buddhist or something like that.
Well, you can call it that. I don’t belong to any tradition, and haven’t felt the need to belong, although I have explored many traditions. I have dipped into them from time to time.
Traditions are a bit like me. They have been around for a long time, and although each individual participant may be young compared to me, there is also some accumulation of wisdom in traditions, at least some of them! I am more partial to some than others, obviously.
Which ones do you resonate with more?
I resonate more with strands within each of them. The ones that reflect the wisdom that comes from observing and living life with some receptivity, sincerity, and curiosity. Some call those the mystical strands. The ones less invested in tradition and shoulds. And more in sincere exploration.
Those strands are often more similar to each other than they are to the more common and public versions of their traditions.
If you have lived so long, how come you are not more cynical?
I tried and lived that too, for a while. It’s uncomfortable. It’s not worth it in the long run.
Cynicism doesn’t come from more lived experience. It comes from taking a stance against life. It’s a way to try to find distance to life and the inherent disappointments, sadness, anger, and so on. And that distance is inherently uncomfortable. Sincerity has more life in it. It’s more alive. It’s more enjoyable. It’s more fun.
What have you found is painful? What versions of life are painful?
Anything in opposition to life is painful. Any view in opposition to life.
Whenever I think I know, it’s painful because life will inevitably show me that and how and where it’s wrong. Life is always something else. Something more. Something different.
Any thought I hold as true is painful. Life will show me where it comes short. I know, somewhere in me, that the thought is not it. It can’t capture life.
It can be a guide. It can be helpful. And it can’t capture life.
Tell me more about thoughts and how you relate to thoughts.
Thoughts are questions about life. They are pointers. They provide maps I can use to orient and navigate by. That’s about it.
They are here to help me orient and navigate. They can’t hold any final or full truth. That’s not their function.
If I think they can, I create suffering and discomfort for myself since it’s out of alignment with reality.
Life will show me where the thought is wrong, and if I resist that, it’s uncomfortable.
It’s simpler and easier to recognize that, and hold them more lightly.
Are you always able to do that?
No. It’s a process. I hold some thoughts, some identities, more close, and sometimes as if they are true. And then I notice that. I notice it because it’s uncomfortable. So I wish to make those thoughts more conscious, and recognize those too as questions. As innocent questions, as they are.
Do you enjoy daily life?
Yes, I do. I love daily life since that’s all there is.
I love the little things. I love sitting in the early morning, listening to the sounds. The quiet. A candle. A cup of tea. Some fruit. Going for a walk.
Talking with others, even if it’s about simple things. Especially about simple things. The ordinary.
I love the ordinary. And I don’t mind the extraordinary too! That’s another spice of life.
You sound a bit like P., the one writing these words.
Well, yes, of course! Where do you think all of this is coming from?
He can’t access what he can’t access. And what he does access is mostly something he has accessed before and is somewhat familiar with.
Does he live from this?
I would say yes, he does. And he doesn’t. Both are true. Both are here.
He has many parts. Some are wise like this. Some are younger. Some are more wounded and gets reactive sometimes. It’s all here. It’s all part of his richness of experience.
How rich is your experience?
My experience is as rich as the world.
I am as rich as the world, as my experience of the world.
Everything I see in others, is here. Everything I see in the world, is here. Everything I imagine, is here.
It all reflects characteristics and dynamics in me.
I can take any thought about anyone or anything, turn it to be about me, and find how and when it’s true.
It’s beautiful. It means I don’t have to pretend to be different or other. It means there is an immense richness here, and I am always discovering it.
Also, my experience of the world is happening here. I am automatically and inherently as rich as my experience of the world, even before or without exploring it in the way I described just now.
Are you a teacher?
No. I don’t see the need to take the role of a teacher. People live their lives. They don’t need this.
And sometimes I take the role of a teacher I guess, if someone feel they need it. If they ask, I may answer.
How do you relate to roles?
We all take different roles throughout a day and life. It’s natural and inevitable.
If we take on a role quite often, or if we try to fulfill some need in ourselves with the role, we may get identified with and as it. I have done that plenty. And I also see what’s happening, and that the identification is inherently painful and uncomfortable. It’s out of alignment with reality.
The reality is that these are all roles that we take on sometimes and in some situations. It’s not what we are. It’s not what I am.
I like to switch roles quite a bit for that reason, to find fluidity between them. And to sometimes intentionally take the reverse roles from what I may be more used to. That’s refreshing.
I discover something about myself through each role, so the more the merrier.
How do you relate to God?
Hm, you seem very focused on existential topics. That’s fine, I enjoy those too. But don’t assume those topics are more important than the other ones. They are all part of life. They all make up this wonderful tapestry of life.
OK, yes, I can see that. I am still curious about how you see God?
I see the value in all the many images people have of God. They all serve a function. Most of them have some validity to them. It’s like that old story of the blind people and the elephant.
For me, God is reality. God is existence as a whole.
I don’t pretend to know or understand that whole, of course. But what I have some experience of, I see as expressions of Existence, of the divine, of God.
We are all – you and me and all beings – local and temporary expressions of this seamless unfolding whole of existence.
How do you see mystical experiences?
There are many types of them, and I am no expert.
You are familiar with some of them, and I am too. They add richness to life.
They can open us up to something beyond what we already are familiar with.
They can trigger curiosity and exploration.
For me, it’s also interesting how we relate to them and make use of them.
Some are glimpses of our nature, and can fuel curiosity and a lifetime of exploring our nature.
Say more about those, please.
Again, the existential questions…! Don’t you have better things to do?
In some ways, you should be the one talking about it. You had that oneness shift when you were sixteen, which put your life on a whole different path.
That’s the type of mystical glimpses or experiences that can help us notice what we more fundamentally are. They can help us notice ourselves as that which all our experiences happen within and as.
For me, that noticing happened more over time, as I described earlier. I saw that everything I took as myself is changing, and yet something essential about me seems to not change. So over time, and eventually, I found myself as that. As what’s already here, as what some call consciousness, as what forms itself into any and all experience.
Tell me about something not existential then
Well, it’s all existential isn’t it? And it’s all ordinary.
I love the simple things. The ordinary conversations. The hellos and isn’t it a beautiful day, or a miserable rainy day, and did you hear about that neighbor?
What comes with having lived for eons?
Much of what you see here. I see life more as a tapestry. Over time, I noticed my nature. I enjoy the small things a lot. I find that sincerity is more fun.
How are you exploring your nature? Or… are you?
Well, yes. It’s still interesting to me. Especially living from and as that noticing – my nature noticing itself – is always interesting. It’s always fresh and new. I love it.
I also love not doing it. And the flow between the two.
Do you get tired of living?
It has happened, and not really.
Tired of living is a stance against life, it’s not wanting what’s here, and that’s uncomfortable.
I love life. I love what’s here. And I am also curious about what’s after this, if anything. That’s another adventure. Receptivity and curiosity helps me love life.
What about gratitude?
Yes, that too. That’s part of it. Gratitude for this amazing and terrible life. Gratitude for this whole package, this tapestry of life. Gratitude for life itself.
Gratitude for what this personality finds it easy to be grateful for. Gratitude even for what this personality can’t easily be grateful for. Gratitude for him not always finding gratitude.
It’s all here. It seems part of my being. It’s accessible, and something I can and do access, and sometimes don’t. That’s all part of it.
What I notice is that over time, the quiet background gratitude is more available and here. There is more transparency to it. It’s more part of my life.
Where do you find receptivity, sincerity, and gratitude?
They are part of me. They are perspectives available to me. I can tap into them. Find them. Align with them, and perceive from and as them. At least for a while. Now and then. And in the background.
They are some perspectives among the many here. Any perspective is here, at least as a potential, at least in the background.
None of them are at the expense of any other. But I can access some, and leave some more dormant or in the background. And sometimes they come up too. That’s part of the richness. Part of the tapestry of life as it happens here.
This being others see you as, how do you see him?
He is here. He lives his own life. He happens as part of the tapestry of life.
Sometimes, there is more identification as him. Other times, when I intentionally notice my nature and that’s in the foreground, then there is less identification with and as him and he lives his own life. That flow is beautiful.
He has been around for a long time. He has experienced a lot. He has gone through immense pain and suffering, and also immense joy and ecstasy. He has gone through it all. I am very grateful to him.
He won’t be around forever, of course. Will I – as my nature – be here when he is gone? I am not sure. That’s another part of the adventure, to see what happens when he dies. Will I still be here, and the content of experience change? That’s possible, but I can’t know until it happens.
How is it when others take you as him, and you experience yourself as your nature?
Hm, it’s not something that comes up so much.
Yes, others mostly see me as him, as this being in the world that’s (almost) always here in my experience.
That’s not wrong. I see it that way too. It’s not a problem.
And I am also aware of my nature, of being space for the world, for the world – as it is to me – happens with and as. My nature is aware of itself, and of forming itself into it all.
I assume others are that too, to themselves. They too are space for their world. Sometimes, they notice. Sometimes, they don’t. That’s OK.
That too is part of the game, of the play of life.
What’s the meaning of this play of life?
I don’t know.
I assume the play may be the meaning? The play itself. Life exploring itself in always new ways.
Existence exploring itself as galaxies, planets, living planets, all kinds of expressions of these seamless unfolding living systems. That may be the purpose of it all.
Existence bringing itself into consciousness, and being awake to its nature as consciousness, is part of it all too. I don’t see that as inherently more or less important. It’s part of the tapestry.
What has surprised you the most?
Good question. I am not surprised that much anymore, although I am always surprised too.
Maybe how much gratitude I find for life? Or how much I enjoy daily life and things that most see as less important? I love those things that many find less important. The simple and ordinary.
I find the simple and ordinary anything but simple and ordinary.
Some talk about paradoxes.
Yes. Well, I see paradoxes, and also not.
I don’t really experience paradoxes, if I am honest.
All stories have some validity to them. The question is just what kind of validity.
There is no paradox there, just a rich tapestry of views and their different ways of being valid.
I am this human self in the world, and I am capacity for this human self and the world. Both are here.
Life is beautiful and terrible, it just depends on your perspective and both are true and valid in their own way.
There is only this now that my perception of time happens within, and there is time unfolding. Again, both are valid in their own way.
All views have some validity, and they are all valid in their own way. The only question is really how each one is valid. Even the most absurd statements have some kind of validity in them, although you may have to look closely!
Doesn’t it get boring or the same when you have lived for so long?
I can’t say it is. It’s all fresh. It’s all alive now.
I can only find the past as images. It only exists in my imagination.
I can only find the future in my imagination.
Life now is different. It’s in all my sense fields. It alive. It’s different.
What’s here is different in an obvious way to imaginations of past and future.
What’s here is alive and fascinating.
Say something that will surprise me.
Everything here is wrong. It’s inherently wrong.
Life is always different. My life and experiences is different.
It cannot be captured in words. Words are misleading. Partial. An abstraction.
And they also have value, especially when we recognize how limited they are.
How is it to have seen so much change?
I have seen innumerable people be born, live, and die. I have had thousands of friends and lost them. I have had hundreds of lovers come and go. I have experienced immense joys and devastating heartbreak, and a lot with less intensity. I have had successes and failures. I have made good and terrible decisions. I have seen an endless series of rules come and go. I have seen fashions come and go, in the material world and ideas. I have seen civilizations transform.
For all of the pain, it’s been worth it. Not that I had that much choice.
What changes when you have lived so long?
I think it shines through what I have said earlier.
Life’s ups and downs seem less like a life-and-death matter. Life and death actually seems less like a life-and-death matter!
There is more of a sense of the tapestry of life, of what’s here now as part of that tapestry.
I know viscerally that all that comes together falls apart. All goes in cycles. What peaks has a decline, and the other way around. Death gives life to something new.
I am less blindly caught up in what’s here now.
That also allows me to more deeply and sincerely appreciate what’s here now.
I have found my nature instead of assuming I am only this being in the world. My nature has found itself, which never went missing.
I appreciate the flow between my nature noticing itself and just living and allowing that noticing go more in the background of attention.
I appreciate the ordinary and daily far more.
My views and identities have softened. I enjoy a richness of views and identities. Why settle for one or a few when you can have and explore all of them?
Say more about identities, please.
In the beginning, I used to have a limited set of identities and many of them seemed exclusive. I am this, not that. I am definitely not that! I want to be more of this. And so on.
After a while, that got tiring and it felt hollow. I realized more and more that all is me. All I see in others is also here. Any identity fits to some extent. I can find it here.
More than that, I want to find it here. It makes my experience of myself richer. It makes my life richer. It makes life far more interesting. It makes it all more alive.
Why would I settle with limited identities when I can have it all? When I can find and explore it all here? When I can explore how any identity fits, at least to some extent?
What about suffering?
I recognize my own suffering when I see others suffer. I don’t go with them into suffering, but I am there for and with them, at least if I can and that seems to be my role.
This all just sounds like regular maturity?
Yes, I assume that’s what it is. When you live for a while, it’s painful to not mature and easier to instead mature. There is less friction with life that way. It’s more comfortable to mature, and also more interesting and even fun.
Is awakening also maturity?
Yes, from my perspective it seems to be. It’s a maturing of who or what I take myself to be, and what I find myself as in immediate noticing.
I initially took myself to be this being in the world, which is fine. It’s also a young perspective, and I found that it comes with some inherent struggle and discomfort.
Over time, I recognized that anything I took myself to be was always changing – this being in the world, identities, views, states. Yet something seemed to not change. I noticed that what I more fundamentally am is capacity for it all, for this being and the world as it appears to me.
That seems a more mature perspective. Is not inherently better, just more mature. It’s also a little more aligned with the reality that’s already here, and it comes with less struggle and discomfort. At least, there is a different relationship now with the struggle and discomfort! More ease, an easier relationship.
So you don’t really have much special to say or share?
That’s right. Nothing special here. Over time, my view on myself and my insights is that it’s less and less special. I am more and more normal.
In one sense, it’s special in that everything is special. In another, it’s all very normal and accessible to anyone. It’s just normal maturing and maturity, mixed in with normal lack of maturity.
It’s a special ordinariness. Or an ordinary specialness.
Are you dumbing this down?
Not really, but I am speaking so it will resonate with most people, at least to some extent.
With others familiar with this terrain, it would sound different. We would explore more nuanced within these topics. We would explore more of the edges of our own experience and noticing.